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Posts: 10
Location: United States | I was disappointed just now to find that I was too late to try these puzzles. Most of the LMI competitions I've entered have had clearly displayed starting and ending times on the main page, whereas this one just vaguely stated that it would be open over the '96 hour period from Dec 21-24'. As solvers at this site clearly consist of a worldwide community, over many different time zones, it's definitely worthwhile to have the server times displayed for start time/end time/current time, so that we are all able to plan accordingly and be certain that we will have time to compete. |
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Location: India | We always follow GMT, but yes, it was not mentioned in the Screen Test main page.
It was there in the demo page / submit page, but I assume you didn't check that. Sorry that you missed it, and we'll be mentioning it more clearly in future. |
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Posts: 10
Location: United States | Thanks for the response. It was clearly my own mistake for leaving it too late. It was a shame for me because I was really looking forward to this competition. I had tried the demo a few days back but don't remember seeing anything about GMT. Of course I should have thought of that and will keep it in mind for the future.
Thanks for taking the time to design these puzzles - they are a lot of fun! I'll anxiously await the next Screen Test. |
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Location: India | john_reid - 2012-12-25 7:42 AM
Thanks for taking the time to design these puzzles - they are a lot of fun! I'll anxiously await the next Screen Test. Just prepared an unofficial link for you - http://logicmastersindia.com/ST/ST3/unofficial.asp
Edited by debmohanty 2012-12-25 8:10 AM
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Posts: 13
Location: India | Hi Deb,
I was thrilled with the no of Variant Sudokus given, i tried the demo Sudoku ..and was practising for the screen test..! however before the dead line time of screen test, i was not able to take it up; as i was travelling; can you please tell me when ll this screen test happen next time ? |
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Location: India | Gotroch - 2012-12-23 4:27 AM
Thank you Deb, it was very nice test.
I usually use pencilmarks very often, but this test disables it, so it was very different solving experience for me. Lot of solving in mind and memory was used.
For the scoring - in my opinion penalty system could have been better. In normal tests one wrong digit = zero points. In this test, submission with lots of wrong cells was still awarded with fair amount of points.
Next time, especialy for such small grids, there can be some limit of maximum wrong cells (6-8) for each puzzle to any points being awarded. Thanks Gotroch. You might not have realized that you were the first solver in the official period. It was lot of fun watching your score updates.
About the scoring system : We didn't have much data to come up with a rigid system. I was keen to play safe, so whenever there was a doubt, I thought it is better to award points to players.
I'm not defending the current system, but here is why it was done this way.
Given that there is a 5 minute cutoff on every puzzle, we needed to have partial points. We* expected many players to have half solved sudokus at the end of the cutoff time (and that is precisely what happened). We wanted to give some points if something has been solved - so there was no minimum-cells-to-be-filled-to-get-points condition.
And finally, about no penalty for wrong cells : it was again because of the cutoff. Imagine a situation where at the end of 270 seconds, 2 players have filled in same number of cells. (take the example of Skyscraper). They have 30 seconds solve the remaining part. Player A keeps staring at the grid and 30 seconds gets over. Player B does not find the logic, but decides to take a bifurcation, but unfortunately he takes the wrong route and 30 seconds gets over (and sudoku gets auto submitted) with him having some incorrect cells on the grid. I just thought that Player B shouldn't get less points than Player A. So there was no penalty for wrong cells.
* Thanks to Rohan and Prasanna who very patiently heard about my concept and discussed about it whenever I needed. |
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An LMI Player with Sudoku ratings 500- | | How balanced do you think the puzzle types of this test were? | Fairly balanced | | | What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? | Too many hard puzzles | | | What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? | Very nice | | | How did you feel about the length / time limit for this test? | Way too many puzzles (too little time) | | | What is your opinion about rules, points and scoring for this test? | Fair | | | What is your opinion about the solving interface? | Fairly Nice | |
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Posts: 12
Location: Thailand | | How balanced do you think the puzzle types of this test were? | Fairly balanced | | | What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? | A bit hard | | | What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? | Fairly Nice | | | How did you feel about the length / time limit for this test? | Way too many puzzles (too little time) | | | What is your opinion about rules, points and scoring for this test? | Very fair | | | What is your opinion about the solving interface? | Fairly Nice | |
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Posts: 1
Location: India | | How balanced do you think the puzzle types of this test were? | Fairly balanced | | | What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? | Just right | | | What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? | Very nice | | | How did you feel about the length / time limit for this test? | A bit too many puzzles | | | What is your opinion about rules, points and scoring for this test? | Very fair | | | What is your opinion about the solving interface? | Very nice | |
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Posts: 16
Location: India | Hi Deb, I remember attempting puzzle no. B3 (not sure, if I completed it or not, but I did fill in some cells).
However, on the review submission page, it says that I did not submit it!
Could there be some problem with the auto-submit after 5 minutes were complete? |
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Location: India | witty - 2012-12-25 1:44 PM
Hi Deb, I remember attempting puzzle no. B3 (not sure, if I completed it or not, but I did fill in some cells).
However, on the review submission page, it says that I did not submit it!
Could there be some problem with the auto-submit after 5 minutes were complete? Hi Jayant, I checked the database. It looks like you have submitted B3 (Touchy) at 88 seconds in your timer without filling any cells. So 5 minutes auto-submit does not have a role to play, since you have submitted much earlier.
You started this puzzle at 2012-12-23 19:48:59 and submitted at 2012-12-23 19:50:28, both in India time. You can check the same in the score page as well.
In review page, we are not showing puzzles which are completely blank.
Is it possible that you are thinking about another puzzle B5 (or some other puzzle) ?
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Posts: 45
Location: India | It's so good to see a test with zero `Zero` Scores 
Edited by adityasaraf007 2012-12-25 3:33 PM
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Posts: 89
Location: India | | How balanced do you think the puzzle types of this test were? | Fairly balanced | | | What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? | A bit hard | | | What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? | Very nice | | | How did you feel about the length / time limit for this test? | A bit too many puzzles | | | What is your opinion about rules, points and scoring for this test? | Fair | | | What is your opinion about the solving interface? | Average | |
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Location: India | Thank you everyone for using the feedback system and letting us know how you felt about the test.
However, I'm bit confused by the feedback about "Number of puzzles". More than 40% of the votes suggest there were too many puzzles / way too many puzzles.
I thought in the IB, it was clear that 12 puzzles are meant for 'All', next 9 puzzles as 'Bonus', and last 9 as 'Extra Bonus'. If you are not a top player, you were not expected to reach section E in any case. Similarly, if you were a beginner, you should have thought that there were 12 puzzles for you.
If we plan for a similar test in future, I am not sure if we can / should reduce the number of puzzles drastically. It will be interesting to understand why players thought there were a lot more puzzles in this test than what it should have been.
 (TooManyPuzzles..png)
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Posts: 328
Location: India | A very good explanation by Deb....I think now I should change my vote from a bit too many to just right... |
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Posts: 89
Location: India | Agree to Neeraj,
Overall i think pencil marks was very much needed, we can do away with UNDO option if one of them is to be exlcuded
Nice variety of puzzles , covered a large no of variants
Edited by utkaarsh 2012-12-26 7:51 PM
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Diagonal Vision Author
Posts: 337
Location: Switzerland | First, I would like to thank you for this first sudoku screen test. It was interesting, fun, well organized and with nice sudokus.
I would like to give my opinion on 2 points: The number of puzzles and pencilmarks:
About number of puzzles: I asked myself if it's really useful to ask this question to players. Is it really a subjective topic? If you ask me this question, my first reaction will be to look at the ranking and analize it.
So for this test, what I see is that 5 players submitted all puzzles (without leaving some of them after just a few seconds). Nobody has the perfect score, without mistake; misko didn't make mistake, but he lacked just around 1 minute to finish the test. The other 4 finished the test before the time limit, but with a few mistakes. Janoslaw spared more than 5 minutes, but without the possibility to check the puzzles a perhaps fix some mistakes.
My point is that, with less puzzles, more players would have been able to submit all, but the ranking would not have been fair, because one or 2 little mistakes would have resulted in a lot of places lost, thus perhaps not reflected the performance. For this test, in my opinion, the number of puzzles was just right.
The number of puzzles is always related to the fairness of ranking and scoring. On normal tests (where we can choose the order in which we solve the puzzles): if there are too little puzzles, one mistake can cost a lot, on the other side, with too many puzzles, you need a perfect evaluation of each puzzle's difficulty to be sure that the ranking is fair, what you can reach only by having at least 10-15 testers in my opinion (what is generally not the case).
When I organize a tournament, I have the answer to the "number of puzzles/general difficulty" question when I look at the ranking.
The other point is pencilmarks for this test:
I understand the decision not having the possibility to write pencilmarks for this screen test. However I noticed 2 things:
1. Writing pencilmarks is a matter of habit. Some players like to write lot of them, others prefer to write only a few. In that sense, the ranking would not have been the same if we could write pencilmark. Therefore it's an important decision.
2. Not being allowed to write pencilmarks, we were tempted to use more bifurcation/guesses than logical work at some points (on hard sudokus). I don't like to do some guesses to solve sudokus, normally I try to avoid them when it's possible. I did more guesses than usually on this test.
I would have preferred to have the possibility to write pencilmarks, even if I'm not a big fan of writing lot of them, and even if I'm not sure that my ranking would have been as good.
On a personal note, I'm happy to have made top10 ranking on the last 3 monthly contest, I hope I'll continue the same way in 2013 
Fred |
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An LMI Player with Sudoku ratings 500- | | How balanced do you think the puzzle types of this test were? | A bit skewed | | | What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? | Too many hard puzzles | | | What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? | Very nice | | | How did you feel about the length / time limit for this test? | Way too many puzzles (too little time) | | | What is your opinion about rules, points and scoring for this test? | Fair | | | What is your opinion about the solving interface? | Average | |
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Location: France | | How balanced do you think the puzzle types of this test were? | Fairly balanced | | | What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? | A bit hard | | | What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? | Very nice | | | How did you feel about the length / time limit for this test? | A bit too many puzzles | | | What is your opinion about rules, points and scoring for this test? | Exteremely unfair | | | What is your opinion about the solving interface? | Very nice | |
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Posts: 268
Location: India | Hi Deb.
I was on travel during the weekend and hence could not take part in the test.
Can you post the unofficial link of the Screen Test, which was given as reply to john_reid as a Bold or Bigger font so that people who are interested in giving it a try can do it. Also can you extend this till weekend if possible.
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Location: India | rvarun - 2012-12-27 1:06 PM
Hi Deb.
I was on travel during the weekend and hence could not take part in the test.
Can you post the unofficial link of the Screen Test, which was given as reply to john_reid as a Bold or Bigger font so that people who are interested in giving it a try can do it. Also can you extend this till weekend if possible.
Hi Varun, It is extended till weekend.
Here is the link again.
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2021 World Sudoku+Puzzle Convention Organizer
Posts: 1776
Location: India | Thanks for all the feedback Fred. I'd like to address those two topics too.
When Deb first explained the concept to me, I personally was pretty excited for it. It seemed like a fun, light way to end the year. I'm glad a lot of others enjoyed it too.
A few of the decisions/features/format of the test are of course debatable, but overall I at least thought it was a fun experience (including the minute-refresh feature which can only be used best in such a test :P ).
To Fred's point about number of puzzles, I look for the same thing when evaluating number of puzzles. Every test is ideally planned so that the top 4-5 scorers can finish it and the rest can come close. As Deb mentioned, Branko was the first one to attempt this test, and then I did it. Seeing my score, both me and Deb were unsure of whether to reduce the time limit to 50 minutes. In the end we went with the belief that I'd had a good day and kept it at 60, and thankfully so, as this turned out to be the ideal limit for the first few to solve, as Fred said. When discussing this test, we thought at length about the beginners and that is why there was the categorization A, B and E in the IB, and I think Deb's already explained about that. So, we tried our best to keep a target for everyone, at the same time keeping enough to give the top players a challenge. At least going statistically, that worked ok.
The point about pencil marks has been debated by everyone, and most seem to feel that its required. When planning the test, I was in favor of disabling pencil marks because of a few reasons -
A. I know most people use notations to proceed, but I've seen it being very much possible to go ahead without them, even on harder grids (There's a site or two that have online solving without pencil marks too, and Fred frequents one of those ;) ). I just felt it was more fun this way.
B. After attempting the test myself, I had solved 29 puzzles logically, guessed on one, and I went back and solved that one too pretty easily after the test. So I told Deb as much, and the system seemed good to go with.
I think Tom's point is good about the Undo button contradicting the decision to disable pencil marks, and here again, it didn't strike me as I didn't use the button during my solves (I used Clear All once I think). We concentrated more on some other features and workings of the page instead, like the warning if an incomplete puzzle is submitted.
I'm glad that some people have commented that they enjoyed it overall, and with a few changes I do think we can have this format again. |
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Posts: 315
Location: The Netherlands | With Christmas getting in the way I hadn't gotten around to commenting.
I think much is already said. I, like Fred also opted far more often to use guessing instead of logic on these puzzles than normal. This was mostly caused by using a lot of notation while solving and I just noticed I missed a lot in the beginning and making silly errors as i misremembered things, which led me to place the wrong digits. These would all probably not have happened if I had made notations. The high amount of guessing was mostly the reason I voted a bit lower than normal on the enjoyability of the test. Resorting to guessing always makes a puzzle les enjoyable for me and with the fixed time limit I have to try to get it out somehow. So I would prefer pencilmarks over an undo button, as I never use those anyway. I guess in another colour and find it far easier to just remove the digits of a single colour using the space bar than use the undo button.
I also think there should be a higher cutoff point for how quickly you get points for a puzzle. I would say you need to have at least half of the grid filled to receive points, because I don't think people should be able to get points for looking at a grid for 15 seconds and placing 1 or 2 digits. I also think a wrong digit should count differently than an empty cell. I feel you should score for the amount of points for the total of (correct digits-wrong digits), with at least half the grid filled, with the extra rule that you can't get any negative points for a puzzle, so when the amount of wrong digits is higher the amount of correct digits is should score 0. I get Deb's argument that someone who guesses and then it gets autosubmitted would get less points if it's wrong, even though they did the same parts logically, except he could also have guessed correctly and get the extra points. And as most guesses are a 50-50 chance of being correct, this would in the long run just even out.
I thought the amount of puzzles was good. The best ones managed to get through it completely, without anyone having a lot of time left over. I think the rating might be partly caused by the fact that many people though, "it's only 6x6 sudokus, that's going to be really easy", as most 6x6 puzzles that you can find are just really easy. And then when a 6x6 puzzles stumps you, like some of these puzzles definitely will beginners, it might be demoralising. But that happens to the best of us. I think this test deserves a repeat, and maybe with everyone now better knowing what to expect the ratings will probably go up.
One final comment. I would have liked it if the letter and number of the puzzle were listed somewhere on the puzzle page while solving (in front of the puzzle name for example). I find it handy to know how far along I am in the puzzle set.
Edited by Para 2012-12-28 4:20 AM
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Location: India | Thanks guys for the in-depth analysis. I think it is safe to assume that for a similar test next time, pencil marks should be enabled, if the sudoku difficulties are more or less same. At the same time, I feel adding pencil marks is not going to help much to beginners. (for example : take the Consecutive Sudoku. I see lot of beginners struggling in that. If you miss the 4 (out of 5 possible) dots in row 2, you are never going anywhere. Not sure if pencil mark would have helped here.)
Another theoretical thought I had about pencil marks is that, LMI's pencil marking is very unique. It is not certainly easy to use, especially if you would be using it for the first time. So I was of the opinion that having pencil marks significantly benefits players who are used to LMI's interface. So disabling pencil marks was one way to make it more balanced to paper players.
Anyway, given that almost all comments suggest that pencil marks should be enabled, we should just do it accordingly next time.
About undo : I remember now that during my initial visualization of the test, I had thought of limiting Undo to 2 steps. (Just enough steps to undo mis-types). But I had forgotten about it when the test took the final shape. So, yeah, I agree that not having pencil marks and enabling undo is a perfect recipe for guessing.
Para - 2012-12-28 4:16 AM
One final comment. I would have liked it if the letter and number of the puzzle were listed somewhere on the puzzle page while solving (in front of the puzzle name for example). I find it handy to know how far along I am in the puzzle set. Will do next time. |
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Posts: 45
Location: India | debmohanty - 2012-12-28 11:00 PM
Another theoretical thought I had about pencil marks is that, LMI's pencil marking is very unique. It is not certainly easy to use, especially if you would be using it for the first time.
On the contrary, I feel LMI's online interface is the best I have found till now. It's way-way-way better than any other interface out there. And only because of LMI's interface, I have started using Pencil Marks - earlier I was used to solving Sudokus with No Pencil Marks at all. (I still don't use Pencil Marks when solving on paper). |
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WSPC 2017 • Schedule • Participation • Location • WSC • WPC • Contact •Search •Recent
LMI Screen Test #3 — December Sudoku Test — 21st-24th December
