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Puzzle Marathon — LMI March Puzzle Test — 1st-10th March 2013
   LMI Tests -> Monthly Sudoku and Puzzle Tests169 posts • Page 4 of 7 • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Joo M.Y
Subject: Re: Puzzle Marathon — LMI March Puzzle Test — 1st-10th March 2013 @ 2013-03-06 4:09 PM (#10194 - in reply to #9546) (#10194) Top




Posts: 72
202020
Location: South Korea
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Star Battle
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Araf
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Liar Diagonal Slitherlink
 How balanced do you think the puzzle types of this test were? Perfectly balanced
 What is your opinion about rules, points and scoring for this test? Very fair
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice


Rubben
Subject: Re: Puzzle Marathon — LMI March Puzzle Test — 1st-10th March 2013 @ 2013-03-06 5:56 PM (#10196 - in reply to #9546) (#10196) Top




Posts: 20
20
Location: Romania
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Fity Fifty
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Gapped Kakuro
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Liar Diagonal Slitherlink
 How balanced do you think the puzzle types of this test were? Perfectly balanced
 What is your opinion about rules, points and scoring for this test? Very fair
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice


connect4
Subject: Re: Puzzle Marathon — LMI March Puzzle Test — 1st-10th March 2013 @ 2013-03-07 2:16 AM (#10199 - in reply to #9546) (#10199) Top




Posts: 7

Location: United States
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Araf
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Star Battle
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Liar Diagonal Slitherlink
 How balanced do you think the puzzle types of this test were? Perfectly balanced
 What is your opinion about rules, points and scoring for this test? Very fair
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice


Nilz
Subject: Re: Puzzle Marathon — LMI March Puzzle Test — 1st-10th March 2013 @ 2013-03-07 2:33 AM (#10200 - in reply to #10151) (#10200) Top




Posts: 29
20
Location: United Kingdom
Para - 2013-03-03 11:31 PM

Nilz - 2013-03-04 3:03 AM

To elaborate on why I voted for it being a 'slightly unfair' scoring system:
If I understand it correctly, there are bonus points for being the fastest solver of a puzzle? This is OK for some tests, but in my opinion this doesn't really make sense when combined with the other parts of the scoring system for this test- the winner gets most points anyway, they don't need any more. Imagine two people get identical times on most puzzles: except on puzzle X, person A beats B by 2 seconds, and they come 2nd and 3rd in the rankings. And on puzzle Y, person B beats A by 2 seconds, but they come first and second. In my view, they should tie overall, but if I understand the scoring for this test correctly, B will win, and I think this is slightly unfair.
But apart from that, great test, great puzzles, looking forward to next year's marathon! ;-)


Everyone who finishes within the alotted time gets bonus for rank, not just the fastest. So in your situation, B gets a bonus for 1st and 3rd, A gets bonus for finishing second twice.


Ah, thanks, that makes a bit more sense. Still not sure I agree with the scoring system though; it means that the relative final positions of any two solvers may be affected by how a third, separate solver does, which seems a bit odd to me (see http://rangevoting.org/GutermanCHE.html for more about this phenomenom- particularly the paragraph about halfway down starting "A dramatic flaunting..."). But at least it does make sense!
Para
Subject: Re: Puzzle Marathon — LMI March Puzzle Test — 1st-10th March 2013 @ 2013-03-07 3:16 AM (#10202 - in reply to #10200) (#10202) Top




Posts: 315
100100100
Location: The Netherlands
Nilz - 2013-03-07 2:33 AM

Para - 2013-03-03 11:31 PM

Nilz - 2013-03-04 3:03 AM

To elaborate on why I voted for it being a 'slightly unfair' scoring system:
If I understand it correctly, there are bonus points for being the fastest solver of a puzzle? This is OK for some tests, but in my opinion this doesn't really make sense when combined with the other parts of the scoring system for this test- the winner gets most points anyway, they don't need any more. Imagine two people get identical times on most puzzles: except on puzzle X, person A beats B by 2 seconds, and they come 2nd and 3rd in the rankings. And on puzzle Y, person B beats A by 2 seconds, but they come first and second. In my view, they should tie overall, but if I understand the scoring for this test correctly, B will win, and I think this is slightly unfair.
But apart from that, great test, great puzzles, looking forward to next year's marathon! ;-)


Everyone who finishes within the alotted time gets bonus for rank, not just the fastest. So in your situation, B gets a bonus for 1st and 3rd, A gets bonus for finishing second twice.


Ah, thanks, that makes a bit more sense. Still not sure I agree with the scoring system though; it means that the relative final positions of any two solvers may be affected by how a third, separate solver does, which seems a bit odd to me (see http://rangevoting.org/GutermanCHE.html for more about this phenomenom- particularly the paragraph about halfway down starting "A dramatic flaunting..."). But at least it does make sense!


The ranking system last year was purely based on time left to solve. Just as this year, the worst solves are discarded. But this caused a problem because not all puzzles are the same difficulty and take the same average or fastest time to solve. This caused for most people last year to have the same puzzle discarded, even if their relative performance was really good compared to others. As the same time on different puzzles might not actually be equally good, it was suggested the scoring system could be improved. So that's why there was a discussion on how to make it fairer, to rank players for each puzzle on their relative performance in each puzzle, instead of their purely time related performance. This eventually led to a bonus system that is similar to the LMI rankings, where each test is scored relatively to the performance of the best solver. In this test instead of top score and ranking, there are fastest time and ranking. And all solvers who finish a puzzle fast enough to qualify for a bonus are included in this calculation.
I'm not saying this is a perfect scoring system, but it's fairer than last year's. And if you have any suggestions on what you think might be a better way, I think they are always welcome. There's always room for discussion here.


Edited by Para 2013-03-07 3:17 AM
Nilz
Subject: Re: Puzzle Marathon — LMI March Puzzle Test — 1st-10th March 2013 @ 2013-03-07 3:57 AM (#10203 - in reply to #10202) (#10203) Top




Posts: 29
20
Location: United Kingdom
Para - 2013-03-06 11:16 PM

Nilz - 2013-03-07 2:33 AM

Para - 2013-03-03 11:31 PM

Nilz - 2013-03-04 3:03 AM

To elaborate on why I voted for it being a 'slightly unfair' scoring system:
If I understand it correctly, there are bonus points for being the fastest solver of a puzzle? This is OK for some tests, but in my opinion this doesn't really make sense when combined with the other parts of the scoring system for this test- the winner gets most points anyway, they don't need any more. Imagine two people get identical times on most puzzles: except on puzzle X, person A beats B by 2 seconds, and they come 2nd and 3rd in the rankings. And on puzzle Y, person B beats A by 2 seconds, but they come first and second. In my view, they should tie overall, but if I understand the scoring for this test correctly, B will win, and I think this is slightly unfair.
But apart from that, great test, great puzzles, looking forward to next year's marathon! ;-)


Everyone who finishes within the alotted time gets bonus for rank, not just the fastest. So in your situation, B gets a bonus for 1st and 3rd, A gets bonus for finishing second twice.


Ah, thanks, that makes a bit more sense. Still not sure I agree with the scoring system though; it means that the relative final positions of any two solvers may be affected by how a third, separate solver does, which seems a bit odd to me (see http://rangevoting.org/GutermanCHE.html for more about this phenomenom- particularly the paragraph about halfway down starting "A dramatic flaunting..."). But at least it does make sense!


The ranking system last year was purely based on time left to solve. Just as this year, the worst solves are discarded. But this caused a problem because not all puzzles are the same difficulty and take the same average or fastest time to solve. This caused for most people last year to have the same puzzle discarded, even if their relative performance was really good compared to others. As the same time on different puzzles might not actually be equally good, it was suggested the scoring system could be improved. So that's why there was a discussion on how to make it fairer, to rank players for each puzzle on their relative performance in each puzzle, instead of their purely time related performance. This eventually led to a bonus system that is similar to the LMI rankings, where each test is scored relatively to the performance of the best solver. In this test instead of top score and ranking, there are fastest time and ranking. And all solvers who finish a puzzle fast enough to qualify for a bonus are included in this calculation.
I'm not saying this is a perfect scoring system, but it's fairer than last year's. And if you have any suggestions on what you think might be a better way, I think they are always welcome. There's always room for discussion here.


Yes, I remember that discussion, and I agree that this year's is fairer, so I'm certainly not complaining, and I hope it doesn't seem that I am! It's not perfect, but no system would be. And it does have the advantage of being fairly easy to understand (unless you're a muppet like me who misreads the method! ).
It seemed to me that there were no puzzles this year that were outliers and were 'significantly' harder than the rest (unlike last year), so last year's scoring system would've worked OK, but I still think this is better- just not perfect!
nyoroppyi
Subject: Re: Puzzle Marathon — LMI March Puzzle Test — 1st-10th March 2013 @ 2013-03-07 3:23 PM (#10205 - in reply to #9546) (#10205) Top


Toketa? Selection Author

Posts: 3

Location: Japan
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Star Battle
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Araf
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Liar Diagonal Slitherlink
 How balanced do you think the puzzle types of this test were? Fairly balanced
 What is your opinion about rules, points and scoring for this test? Very fair
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice


Administrator
Subject: Re: Puzzle Marathon — LMI March Puzzle Test — 1st-10th March 2013 @ 2013-03-07 7:41 PM (#10206 - in reply to #9546) (#10206) Top


20001000500202020
Location: India
The score page is now handling penalties properly.
As you already have found out, you can see puzzles which you have submitted correctly. This means if you have not submitted all 12 puzzles, your rank will go down (even if the competition ends now).
Administrator
Subject: Re: Puzzle Marathon — LMI March Puzzle Test — 1st-10th March 2013 @ 2013-03-07 7:50 PM (#10207 - in reply to #9546) (#10207) Top


20001000500202020
Location: India
Couldn't help, but share how we have 3 winners now

(
1st table - after all 12 puzzles
2nd table - this is how the score page looks to EKBM who has finished just 2
3rd table - this is how the score page looks to sai who has finished just 2
)
An LMI player
Subject: Re: Puzzle Marathon — LMI March Puzzle Test — 1st-10th March 2013 @ 2013-03-08 12:13 AM (#10209 - in reply to #9546) (#10209) Top


An LMI Player with Puzzle ratings 500-
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Nanro
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Gapped Kakuro
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Fity Fifty
 How balanced do you think the puzzle types of this test were? Fairly balanced
 What is your opinion about rules, points and scoring for this test? Fair
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice


jhrdina
Subject: Re: Puzzle Marathon — LMI March Puzzle Test — 1st-10th March 2013 @ 2013-03-08 3:33 AM (#10212 - in reply to #9546) (#10212) Top




Posts: 9

Location: Czech Republic
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Multi Skyscrapers
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Mintonette
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Liar Diagonal Slitherlink
 How balanced do you think the puzzle types of this test were? Perfectly balanced
 What is your opinion about rules, points and scoring for this test? Bit unfair
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice


The scoring is a little unfair in the respect that the most difficult puzzles have the least effect on scoring. They take too much time and bring too little bonus. It would be better to calculate bonus points against an average or median of times of the solvers.
Para
Subject: Re: Puzzle Marathon — LMI March Puzzle Test — 1st-10th March 2013 @ 2013-03-08 4:34 AM (#10214 - in reply to #10212) (#10214) Top




Posts: 315
100100100
Location: The Netherlands
jhrdina - 2013-03-08 3:33 AM

The scoring is a little unfair in the respect that the most difficult puzzles have the least effect on scoring. They take too much time and bring too little bonus. It would be better to calculate bonus points against an average or median of times of the solvers.


Isn't that what happens now? Every puzzle, no matter what the fastest solving time has the same bonus for the fastest solver. So every puzzle has the same range of bonus.
If you mean, the mean of all solvers, even the ones taking more than an hour, then it would severely alter the test structure. the idea of the one hour bonus cutoff point is so people can stop solving and don't have to keep solving for hours if they can't finish it as otherwise they'd lose loads of points.
An LMI player
Subject: Re: Puzzle Marathon — LMI March Puzzle Test — 1st-10th March 2013 @ 2013-03-08 8:42 AM (#10216 - in reply to #9546) (#10216) Top


An LMI Player with Puzzle ratings 500+
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Graffiti Snake
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Gapped Kakuro
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Maxi Loop
 How balanced do you think the puzzle types of this test were? Fairly balanced
 What is your opinion about rules, points and scoring for this test? Fair
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Fairly Nice


An LMI player
Subject: Re: Puzzle Marathon — LMI March Puzzle Test — 1st-10th March 2013 @ 2013-03-08 9:53 AM (#10217 - in reply to #9546) (#10217) Top


An LMI Player with Puzzle ratings 500-
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Star Battle
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Multi Skyscrapers
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Gapped Kakuro
 How balanced do you think the puzzle types of this test were? Fairly balanced
 What is your opinion about rules, points and scoring for this test? Very fair
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice


zorko
Subject: Re: Puzzle Marathon — LMI March Puzzle Test — 1st-10th March 2013 @ 2013-03-09 12:53 AM (#10222 - in reply to #9546) (#10222) Top





Posts: 11

Location: Bulgaria
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Graffiti Snake
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Nanro
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Maxi Loop
 How balanced do you think the puzzle types of this test were? Perfectly balanced
 What is your opinion about rules, points and scoring for this test? Very fair
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice


keshava.hs
Subject: Re: Puzzle Marathon — LMI March Puzzle Test — 1st-10th March 2013 @ 2013-03-09 1:21 AM (#10223 - in reply to #9546) (#10223) Top




Posts: 10

Location: India
not getting marks for Maxi loop, please have a look
An LMI player
Subject: Re: Puzzle Marathon — LMI March Puzzle Test — 1st-10th March 2013 @ 2013-03-09 1:40 AM (#10224 - in reply to #9546) (#10224) Top


An LMI Player with Puzzle ratings 500+
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Liar Diagonal Slitherlink
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Araf
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Watches
 How balanced do you think the puzzle types of this test were? Perfectly balanced
 What is your opinion about rules, points and scoring for this test? Fair
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice


For people like me, it would be nice to get bonus points for a longer period than 60 minutes. Because often puzzles need just some more than 60 minutes (that was for several puzzles this time), and this is worth just the same as working hours or days solving them. But nevertheless I enjoyed the contest very much, and it was hard to choose the 3 "best" puzzles, for they were all beautiful!
An LMI player
Subject: Re: Puzzle Marathon — LMI March Puzzle Test — 1st-10th March 2013 @ 2013-03-09 2:38 PM (#10227 - in reply to #9546) (#10227) Top


An LMI Player with Puzzle ratings 500+
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Mintonette
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Star Battle
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Liar Diagonal Slitherlink
 How balanced do you think the puzzle types of this test were? Perfectly balanced
 What is your opinion about rules, points and scoring for this test? Very fair
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice


rakesh_rai
Subject: Re: Puzzle Marathon — LMI March Puzzle Test — 1st-10th March 2013 @ 2013-03-09 3:24 PM (#10228 - in reply to #9546) (#10228) Top



Mean Minis (2020) Author

Posts: 774
500100100202020
Location: India
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Araf
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Mintonette
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Liar Diagonal Slitherlink
 How balanced do you think the puzzle types of this test were? Perfectly balanced
 What is your opinion about rules, points and scoring for this test? Very fair
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice


chaotic_iak
Subject: Re: Puzzle Marathon — LMI March Puzzle Test — 1st-10th March 2013 @ 2013-03-09 8:23 PM (#10231 - in reply to #9546) (#10231) Top



Typed Logic Author

Posts: 241
1001002020
Location: Indonesia
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Araf
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Star Battle
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Graffiti Snake
 How balanced do you think the puzzle types of this test were? Perfectly balanced
 What is your opinion about rules, points and scoring for this test? Fair
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice


Well, the second and the third favorite puzzles are hard to decide; I have four candidates (Star Battle, Graffiti Snake, Maxi Loop, and Liar Diagonal Slitherlink). The first is certainly Araf for me though.

Great puzzles overall.
Igor_Aipkin
Subject: Re: Puzzle Marathon — LMI March Puzzle Test — 1st-10th March 2013 @ 2013-03-09 9:29 PM (#10232 - in reply to #9546) (#10232) Top




Posts: 3

Location: Uzbekistan
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Araf
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Liar Diagonal Slitherlink
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Fity Fifty
 How balanced do you think the puzzle types of this test were? Perfectly balanced
 What is your opinion about rules, points and scoring for this test? Very fair
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice


Administrator
Subject: Re: Puzzle Marathon — LMI March Puzzle Test — 1st-10th March 2013 @ 2013-03-10 3:56 AM (#10235 - in reply to #10192) (#10235) Top


20001000500202020
Location: India
witty - 2013-03-06 10:42 AM

Can the submission deadline be extended by a few days?
You finished even with more than a day to spare, which not many Indians have done yet. Hope you enjoyed.
An LMI player
Subject: Re: Puzzle Marathon — LMI March Puzzle Test — 1st-10th March 2013 @ 2013-03-10 4:23 AM (#10236 - in reply to #9546) (#10236) Top


An LMI Player with Puzzle ratings 500+
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Araf
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Masyu
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Mintonette
 How balanced do you think the puzzle types of this test were? Perfectly balanced
 What is your opinion about rules, points and scoring for this test? Very fair
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice


esther59
Subject: Re: Puzzle Marathon — LMI March Puzzle Test — 1st-10th March 2013 @ 2013-03-10 5:34 AM (#10237 - in reply to #9546) (#10237) Top




Posts: 8

Location: Switzerland
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Graffiti Snake
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Mintonette
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Nanro
 How balanced do you think the puzzle types of this test were? Perfectly balanced
 What is your opinion about rules, points and scoring for this test? Very fair
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice


Thank you VERY MUCH for this contest! It was really a very hard week for me to do all these puzzles, because I didn't know most of them and they were very difficult for me. But in the end, I have solved them all, I am very proud ;-). Normally, I put puzzles after solving into the waste-paper basket, but these Marathon puzzles I will keep til I die ;-).
Thanks again to all the authors for these fantastic puzzles.
rimodech
Subject: Re: Puzzle Marathon — LMI March Puzzle Test — 1st-10th March 2013 @ 2013-03-10 7:06 AM (#10238 - in reply to #9546) (#10238) Top


Nuovo Cinema Sudoku Author

Posts: 7

Location: Serbia
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Gapped Kakuro
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Nanro
 Your 3 most favorite puzzles of the contest. Araf
 How balanced do you think the puzzle types of this test were? Fairly balanced
 What is your opinion about rules, points and scoring for this test? Very fair
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice


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