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Poll Playoffs at WSC/WPC 2017
   WSC and WPC 2017 -> General Discussion about WSC and WPC 201733 posts • Page 2 of 2 • 1 2
We, the organizers of WSC/WPC 2017, are proposing an idea of replacing the Playoffs in the 2017 Championships with more rounds for all players to solve
Please share your opinion and thoughts about "Playoffs in the 2017 Championships"
OptionResults
Playoffs should be held at WSC & WPC 201735 Votes - [50%]
Playoffs need not be held, I prefer better spacing of the rounds and maybe an extra round25 Votes - [35.71%]
Playoffs need not be held, I prefer more competitive rounds of solving10 Votes - [14.29%]

Anonymous
Subject: RE: Playoffs at WSC/WPC 2017 @ 2017-04-03 7:49 PM (#22731 - in reply to #22270) (#22731) Top


Playoffs is equivalent to the finals of a Championship.

And playoffs must involve a good majority (if not all) of the participants. But, off late, very few people turn up for the playoffs...because there is probably nothing to watch. Except for the players and the organizers, others have minimal involvement with the event. Except for the knockout playoffs in 2012, which appealed to some extent to the audience.

So, it may not be a bad idea to have a championship without a playoff and see how it works.

And, having multiple playoffs - for Sudoku GP, WSC, Puzzle GP and WPC - brings down the interest levels as well. In 2016 also, there were a bit too many playoffs perhaps. The two playoffs for the GP should be good enough and the remaining time can be utilized to probably execute something more interesting and, more importantly, which involves a majority of the community.
NikolaZ
Subject: RE: Playoffs at WSC/WPC 2017 @ 2017-04-03 11:59 PM (#22732 - in reply to #22731) (#22732) Top




Posts: 2

Location: Serbia		I agree with Anonymous that maybe there is too much playoffs. I suggest to cancel live GP finals from 2018. Grand Prix is a tournament, an excellent one, but only a tournament and we are bringing it here because it is an annual world meeting. Please, be honest with yourself, who wants to replace their participation in world championship finals with the participation in the tournament playoff?

WSC and WPC playoffs are great culmination of biggest world events and they must be preserved. Formats of the playoffs should be altered every year since, as I already said, the perfect system is not invented yet.
Kalaiyarasan
Subject: Re: Playoffs at WSC/WPC 2017 @ 2017-04-04 1:45 AM (#22734 - in reply to #22270) (#22734) Top




Posts: 1

I agree
Fred76
Subject: Re: Playoffs at WSC/WPC 2017 @ 2017-04-09 3:11 PM (#22765 - in reply to #22734) (#22765) Top



Diagonal Vision Author

Posts: 337
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Location: Switzerland		It's a courageous decision, that breaks the tradition.

Please let me do a few comments (in english, sorry for the non english-speakers):

  • Do you have the consent of the WPF Board for doing that?
    The current document (guidebook) mentions explicitly the playoffs, and although we can be sad by the poverty of the document, it seems that the decisions of the board are actually taken based on that document ("The guidebook does not currently have restrictions on Sudoku vs Non-Sudoku elements of the WSC, so in the end it is a personal opinion you hold").

  • I strongly disagree with the opinion that this competition really need playoffs:
    If we make analogy, we have to admit that the playoffs in other sports are very different competition. All the examples that come to my mind are sports where players or teams fight against each other, with direct elimination (it's possible to do similar things (2012) with puzzles, but it's not the purpose of the whole world championships, you can't ask a player to come and then be eliminated after having solved 2 or 3 puzzles, so it's possible only for the playoffs), and most of cases are annual competition. While it makes sense to say the best one of the season is the one who is the best at the end of the season, I don't see any reason to say that the best sudoku/puzzle player of the year is the one who is the best in the last 30 minutes of a 2-days competition.
    The more accurate analogy with sport is a run involving lot of people. And here I've to say that I sometimes have the impression that the WSC/WPC playoffs would be similar to organize a 400m run with the 10 best marathon runner. Or make the winner of the Tour de France be the one that win an extra stage consisting of climbing the Ventoux.
    In the few recent WSC/WPC playoffs, best players had to solve 4 or 5 puzzles in the final. Finally who is the best player? The one who was the best in solving the 100+ puzzles of the 2 days competition or the one who was the best at solving the last 4 puzzles? This issue led the organizers to think about system that favour the best players of preliminary rounds. But then it's very hard to find the right balance between fairness and excitement. And in my opinion all system invented yet look artificial.
    Another problem which comes specifically with our discipline are the puzzles themselves: We all know the result of a competition is depending on which puzzles are to be solved, especially when the competition (the final) contains only 4 or 5 puzzles. If you get another set of puzzles, you'll potentially have another world champion. The question then comes: Who is more important at world championship: players or authors?

  • We could do a list of issues that appears in the recent playoffs. It was mentionned that the perfect system is not yet found. This is worst than that. To take few examples:
    -2012: If I remember well, some players specify before the competition that they'll consider that the world champion is the best player of preliminary rounds, because they didn't find that the system was fair. There was an issue in the quarter final of WSC.
    -2013: No real issue here, but we can ask ourselves what was the purpose to eliminate players after 3 and 6 puzzles in the semi final. Moreover the "run throuh the tables and see if there is one more free" was particularly ridiculous.
    -2014: Issue in the final of WSC, which led to give two bronze medals.
    -2015: No particular issue (!), but the audience could not see how the players solved the puzzle, and it is my personal opinion that it was quite boring for the audience.
    -2016: There was so many playoffs that the time limit had to be very strict, which led the final of WSC to be finished by only one player. I think the final should be finished only after the 3 best players completed all puzzles.

  • The GP final seems to me to work far better. The sport aspect has more meaning:
    -It's a yearly competition, and not a 2-days competition.
    -It's more different than the preliminary rounds that are online, thus having small time gap between players is not a problem, it leads to an exciting and fair competition.
    -The finalists play under the same conditions, which is potentially not the case in the online rounds (fast/slow printer, noise/external disturbance, speed to enter the codes, etc..)
    -The whole format seems to work well so far.



So in my opinion, if one of the playoff should be remove, it's better to be the world championship playoffs than the GP finals. I agree with the fact we need such competition with the best players during WSC/WPC, it can be excited, but it also should be used by the WPF to make more advertizing/promotion.

Fred

prasanna16391
Subject: Re: Playoffs at WSC/WPC 2017 @ 2017-04-10 11:37 PM (#22778 - in reply to #22765) (#22778) Top


2021 World Sudoku+Puzzle Convention Organizer

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Fred76 - 2017-04-09 3:11 PM


  • Do you have the consent of the WPF Board for doing that?
    The current document (guidebook) mentions explicitly the playoffs, and although we can be sad by the poverty of the document, it seems that the decisions of the board are actually taken based on that document ("The guidebook does not currently have restrictions on Sudoku vs Non-Sudoku elements of the WSC, so in the end it is a personal opinion you hold").




Hi Fred,

I checked in with the WPF Board on behalf of the organizing team earlier this year about a few things, including this topic of whether playoffs are a must. I also communicated to them that we plan to have a poll to this end. The Board confirmed that playoffs need not be held and that the organizers can make a decision either way, and it was only after this that we started the poll.
prasanna16391
Subject: Re: Playoffs at WSC/WPC 2017 @ 2017-04-13 8:32 PM (#22811 - in reply to #22730) (#22811) Top


2021 World Sudoku+Puzzle Convention Organizer

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Location: India
Yuhei Kusui - 2017-04-03 12:17 PM

At the present moment I can't say excluding play-off is a bad decision because I don't know what "good alternatives" are; they should be revealed as soon as possible, as new ideas require plenty of time to be understood.


Hi Yuhei,

The alternative we are thinking of has been mentioned before, but I will elaborate once again. We are going to have an evening event, a Player vs Player knockout event open to everyone. As I have indicated before, we have a set system for this which worked at the National level last year and we are confident we can replicate that. This event will be exciting, fun, can be used for media and publicity, and most importantly, everyone can participate without worrying too much about 'fairness' and 'choosing a worthy World Champion'.
onigame
Subject: Re: Playoffs at WSC/WPC 2017 @ 2017-09-01 1:50 PM (#23064 - in reply to #22270) (#23064) Top




Posts: 18

Location: United States		I'm very very late to this discussion but I highly approve of the removal of playoffs. In my opinion, the playoffs have never been a good indication of choosing the best solver. Everyone has just gone through a dozen rounds of competition, and the dozen rounds are then condensed into less than 5 minutes of playoff advantage time. It would be like if you gave students a test, and the first 100 questions were worth 5% of their grade while the last 10 questions were easier questions and worth 95% of their grade.

The advantage of playoffs have always been for the spectators, to see what the best puzzle-solvers in the world can do, and a little bit for the players in position 10-20 to feel like they still have a chance of catching up and getting just the right amount of luck. But as the WPC puzzles become less and less accessible to the majority of casual viewers, they cannot understand what they are seeing in the playoffs. Without the playoff-solving being on camera, there is even less for the viewers to see. Ever since I stopped being good enough to qualify for playoffs, I discovered that I really didn't enjoy watching the playoffs. I would much rather take the playoff puzzles and solve them by myself. :)
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