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Posts: 44
Location: United States | macherlakumar: I see some use in having easier puzzles available for people to try and to get started with, but to implement them in a test here is impractical, and this really doesn't seem the place for it. If there are any types that anyone wants to start on but where some simpler puzzles are needed, I strongly suggest contacting some puzzle authors in the community and requesting them. Speaking for myself, I'm happy to take requests, and many others in the community probably would be at least somewhat accommodating too. |
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Posts: 123
Location: India | Administrator - 2012-01-31 6:18 AM macherlakumar - 2012-01-30 9:33 PMIs it a good idea to have an option where a player can choose if he/she needs a hint to solve a puzzle at the cost of some X points depending on the time lapsed from the start of puzzle along with reduced bonus system (if applicable) ?This might help few solvers to have the satisfaction of solving all the puzzles and create more interest in puzzles. It doesn't make sense to me. It also is very impractical.
Regards,
Ravi |
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Location: India | Time for some statistics -
Number of Puzzles Vs Starts / Finishes / Bonus
It is extremely pleasing to see that 124 players finished all 10 puzzles.
Also, on an average (of 259 players who submitted at least 1 puzzle), a player finished 7.4 puzzles.
And because of the interesting bonus system, here is how the 20th / 50th score compared against the top score.
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Location: India | From the feedback page :
There is a bit of story behind Graffiti Snake. The first version of IB had "Paint By Number". We wanted to include PNB because, as per Rohan's word, PNB is king of big puzzles. But before I asked Serkan to make PNB, I suggested that he should make a Graffiti Snake instead. (I get 1% credit for selecting the type, and Serkan gets 99% credit for making a beautiful puzzle)
Next 3 sets of graphs pretty much suggest that the corresponding aspects of the test were close to perfect.
Many players voted that they would use Online solving if provided. We will try to provide that next time, but no promises. We face enough issues while supporting both online and paper for Sudoku tests.
Of 149 players, 144 players voted that they would participate in future marathons, either as player or as player + author.
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Posts: 10
Location: Japan | I found a technical issue at the result page(score.asp)
... columns of each puzzle are sorted improperly when they are displayed in 'Points'(not 'Submission Time').
They are to be sorted in numerical order(like 'Points' and 'Bonus' columns),
but they are sorted in character-based(ASCII) order ...
# I remember that some of them were correctly sorted a few days ago. |
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Posts: 10
Location: Australia | I'd really appreciate someone giving a break down of an entry point into Different Numbers - I really struggle with these and got absolutely nowhere with this particualr one. |
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Location: India | debmohanty - 2012-01-30 6:30 AM
Puzzle Marathon is now over. Congratulations to motris, MellowMelon and Kota for winning.
Individual puzzle wise, there were 6 winners. Volxa (Kakuro), motris (Loop The Loops, Samurai Sudoku, Braille Word Search, Pentomino Areas), xevs (Graffiti Snake), Para (Black And White Loop, Small Regions), ACM (Tapa)
And Serkan (Different Neighbours)
Why did I have to wait till someone point me that?  |
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Location: India | reesylou - 2012-02-01 6:10 AM
I'd really appreciate someone giving a break down of an entry point into Different Numbers - I really struggle with these and got absolutely nowhere with this particualr one.
There is cheeky start to the Different Neighbours at the top right corner.
Note that X has to be 1 or 2, otherwise the top right is not solvable uniquely.
Then transferring the 4 we get that the 2X2 cell can only be 3.
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Posts: 123
Location: India | Who are the test solvers ? I am not sure if it is mentioned somewhere and I missed it or it is not mentioned anywhere.
Regards,
Ravi |
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Location: India | macherlakumar - 2012-02-01 10:27 AM
Who are the test solvers ? I am not sure if it is mentioned somewhere and I missed it or it is not mentioned anywhere.
Oops... I didn't mention anywhere.
We had 3 live-testers this time - Branko, Prasanna and Rohan. While everyone else had 9 days to solve the puzzles at their own comfort timings, these guys had to solve all puzzles within two days time. Fortunately, we didn't find any issues during their solving and their scores remained official.
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Location: India | aldentea - 2012-02-01 5:35 AM
I found a technical issue at the result page(score.asp)
... columns of each puzzle are sorted improperly when they are displayed in 'Points'(not 'Submission Time').
Yes, that is a bug. Too late to fix though  |
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Posts: 172
Location: ITALY | I have done some analysis of the score and bonus system.
First of all, in my opinion the scoring system in this contest was very good because every player had a realistic possibility of gaining bonuses on most puzzles, which means that the rank is very close to the sum of the times obtained in the individual puzzles. There is an exception, the Samurai Sudoku which was much more difficult than the remaining puzzles, and in which only 20 players were awarded bonus points, and which even the best solver (motris) had to drop as his worst result.
Overall, the number of players gaining a bonus was 1108 out of 1927 (57.5%), relatively high, and this is the distribution among the various puzzles.
If we consider the percentage of players which gained a bonus as a measure of the difficulty of the puzzle, we must conclude that the easiest of the puzzle was the Braille wordsearch, with 84% of the submissions gaining a bonus. This was originally indicated as an AVERAGE puzzle. Which means that an attempt to allocate different times (or different bonus thresholds) to puzzle of different difficulties as proposed by detuned, may be affected by wrong evaluation of the difficulty.
I have also analysed the proposal of awarding bonuses only to those players completing a puzzle within a fixed time (30 minutes) from the top solver. The total number of players earning a bonus in this case would be of 786, 40.8%, and the distribution is the following.
In my personal opinion, this system would be much worse. Not only the peculiarity of the Samurai sudoku is not solved (of course, 30 minutes margin on a very though puzzle means much less for a tough puzzle than for an easy one) but the total number of bonusus decreases dramatically, punishing the players earning 10-15 points with a solution time between 40 and 50 minutes. Overall, almost 350 submissions would earn no bonus at all, and this would be concentrated in the middle category solvers. Also, for those players, the average bonus would be reduced therefore the score would privilege a player with a very good time in just one puzzle against a player with decent times overall, and I do not think this is (or should be) the target of this competition.
I have tried to develop a different system. This is based on assigning to the top solver a bonus of, say, 50 points, to define a bonus threshold to n times the time of the top solver, and to calculate the bonus by linear interpolation between these two values. I have prepared 3 scenarios, with n= 4, 5 and 6 respectively. Which means that a player would earn a bonus if his/her time was 4, 5 or 6 times the time of the best solver, or better.
The following distributions are obtained
The total number of bonus scores is 905 (46.9%) for n=4, 1118 (58%) for n=5 and 1275 (66%) for n=6.
All these calculations give a better distribution of the scores among the puzzles, (the number of players earning a bonus on the samurai is now comparable to the other puzzles) and the situation which better approaches the system adopted is for n=5. Of course this system would give different results in terms of final ranking, benefitting mainly those players which had a good time on the Samurai, but not good enough to gain a bonus on it.
The negative consequence is that, with the system adopted for this competition, it was clear that after one hour from starting a player could put the puzzle in a corner to solve it the next day. With this system it could be possible (except for the very first player to start a puzzle) to show a “current bonus threshold” as an indication about when a player could give up, and also as an indication of the level of difficulty of the puzzle as required by Puzzlescot, but this indication may change with the time, as strong players will set up best times.
Overall, I think that the system adopted for Marathon number one has the advantage of being simple, and could be adopted again without variation if only the organizers will avoid to use puzzles with a remarkable difference in difficulty, such as the Samurai Sudoku. If a new system has to be adopted, a calculation based on a bonus threshold of minimum 5 or 6 times the time of the best solver can be an improvement and could allow to use puzzles of different level of difficulty, but I am convinced that very difficult puzzles requiring the average solver much more than an hour to be solved, should be avoided for practical reasons.
Excel Analysis : http://logicmastersindia.com/M201201P/MarathonSolvingTimes_forcolin...
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Location: India | Stefano,
Thanks for the details analysis and many insights. The %bonus per puzzle is indeed useful information.
1) About Braille Word Search - Yes, this puzzle was marked as AVERAGE difficulty. For some reason, this puzzle looked scary (to me, and I guess many others). As you can see this puzzle has least number of submissions, even compared to Graffiti which was uploaded 48 hours later.
2) About Samurai - A lot has been said in the forum about this puzzle. All I can repeat that it was a bad choice. It is doubly bad considering that I insisted all authors to make puzzles with 12-18 minutes target time for top solvers for each puzzle.
The low percentage for Kakuro is not really surprising. This is the only classic-Nikoli puzzle and we know that some players are extremely fast in those. (That is also the reason we had exactly 1 classic-Nikoli puzzle)
3) About 5XN or 6XN bonus system - This is really innovative. If the puzzle difficulties are varying a lot, we might have to follow something similar.
But as you mentioned, if there were no Samurai, there is little need for changing the current bonus system. The current bonus system has 2 major benefits
a) it is extremely simple
b) the target for each puzzle is published and is well known
So, in future marathons, we would first make sure that there are no Samurai like puzzles. That solves majority of the problems. It will be impossible to make all puzzles of similar difficulty. But as long as there is no puzzle extremely difficult, we should be ok.
There other points are
1) whether it is fair to compare scores by just adding up individual puzzle times of varying difficulties
2) whether ranks in individual puzzle should be given any importance (like LMI Ratings)
I think this post from motris briefs about these two, but it does not have specific formula.
Thanks once again for your analysis and your suggestions to improve everything that we should. |
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Posts: 199
Location: United States | This is incredible data and I'm glad to finally have something like this in hand. I'm not sure what Stefano is trying to optimize (uniformity of percent achieving bonus? - is this really the relevant parameter?) and I haven't had time to dive too deep into the info myself. But I think the most fascinating graphs so far are just looking at the trends in time for each puzzle across the top 100 solvers and seeing how using the "nth solver" at any point is a good measure of the relative ranking of a puzzle's difficulty.
I've linked to two images, one with a view of the whole test and one with just a view of the first hour which cuts Pentomino, Kakuro, and Samurai from the top 100 solver graph but gives a much better picture of the other puzzles. I think the data establishes a clear order of Tapa < Loop The Loop < Braille/Small Regions < Diff Neighbors/Graffiti < Black and White Loop < Pentomino/Kakuro < Samurai.
Notice that top time is probably the worst of the 100 choices for ranking the difficulty of the puzzles (and therefore the worst to use to normalize by multiplication or other means). Looking at the 10th solver (95th percentile) seems much better though. The top time suggests Pentomino is slightly easier than Black and White Loop. The 10th place (or any spot from 10-100) shows it is a 20-25% harder puzzle than the Black and White Loop for the vast majority of solvers.
These graphs also show me good characteristics to fit to either a rank-based or a normalized scoring model to get all the puzzles back on par with each other. The linear nature actually suggests rank may be best, with perhaps 150 to the top solver, 149 to the second, down to 100 for the 51st and later. For only Samurai, which we agree is too hard, would this system break down at one hour. But I do think you need to treat Kakuro and Pentomino differently from the easiest 6, and maybe even Black and White Loop as well. I disagree that only Samurai was an outlier on this test, and I'll let these graphs speak for themselves on that point.
Edited by motris 2012-02-02 10:14 AM
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Posts: 69
Location: Germany | First of all thank you for the nice contest.
Beside any data analysis: for me (as mediocre solver) the Sudoku was the only puzzle, that felt a little bit like marathon. All the other ones are just a little bit bigger than usual, which didn't matter, because I could solve one or two per day. If you want to test endurance, I would suggest the following: Give an even longer general time window (maybe four weeks), so that much people can find the time to participate. In this window, you can start the contest at any time, which gives you a 24h-window working like the last contest.
I think a general problem of this contests is the time difference between a top solver and an average solver. In a 2 hour contest, which the best solvers hardly finish, I will get 1/3-1/2 of the points and need maybe 2-3 more hours, if I want to finish all puzzles. If the contest should feel like a marathon for the best, this would mean at least 4-5h for them. But if it aims for "time needed for a fixed amount of puzzles" instead of "finished puzzles in a fixed time" that would mean something like 15 hours for me, which isn't suitable. And if I can do it in different sessions it's not really a marathon for me.
(This reminds me of an interview with an hobby-marathonist which I read a while ago. He said things get easier after you can beat the 3h-mark, because you don't have to run so long, if you're fast enough ;-) ) |
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Posts: 10
Location: Australia | debmohanty - 2012-02-01 3:26 PM
reesylou - 2012-02-01 6:10 AM
I'd really appreciate someone giving a break down of an entry point into Different Numbers - I really struggle with these and got absolutely nowhere with this particualr one.
There is cheeky start to the Different Neighbours at the top right corner.
Note that X has to be 1 or 2, otherwise the top right is not solvable uniquely.
Then transferring the 4 we get that the 2X2 cell can only be 3.
Ahhh.. of course. I used assuming uniqueness in some of the other puzzles, but the Different Numbers type always cause me problems, so I didn't think to use that here - and I unfortunately chose to focus on the bottom left corner.
I'll give it another go with that in mind. Thanks. |
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Posts: 152
Location: United Kingdom | This thread is turning into a bit of a monster, but as a point of interest, I've just posted some kakuro thoughts on the UKPA boards:
http://forum.ukpuzzles.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=534#p5675 |
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Posts: 123
Location: India | detuned - 2012-02-04 8:56 PMThis thread is turning into a bit of a monster, but as a point of interest, I've just posted some kakuro thoughts on the UKPA boards:http://forum.ukpuzzles.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=534#p5675 I want to say one thing about your Kakuro, it is simply "Beauty and Beast" :).
Beauty : In the way it is designed.
Beast : The toughness in solving.
I am not sure about the break-in as top left as you mentioned, I am sure when I solved this, I solved it from bottom of 'I' on below left and worked to the top.
Regards,
Ravi |
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Posts: 199
Location: United States | I've now gone ahead and played with the scoring model and tried the 150 for 1st, 149 for 2nd, 148 for 3rd, down to 100 for 51st through last finisher. I like this system a lot because it makes all puzzles equal for potential bonus. Each puzzle has a total of 1275 bonus points split between the top 50 finishers. This means an "easy" puzzle will not give too much bonus to too many solvers. A "hard" puzzle will not give too little bonus to too few solvers. Each puzzle has same final value. Obviously, the choice of top 50, and the linear progression of bonus, were arbitrary and can be adjusted for a given test. I kept the best 9 out of 10 approach.
I've attached the stats for the top 20 (yellow shading is the dropped puzzle with rank scoring and I've shaded all tied options where those exist, red font is the dropped puzzle with current scoring). The average rank column is for the top 9 puzzles for that solver, but shows that deu and kota were very close and para and misko also very close in overall performance based on rank across the test. The time scoring had a different rank in these cases.
I have also attached my excel spreadsheet if someone wants to play with this type of system further. I'm already looking at how to use it on my next decathlon test.
Edited by motris 2012-02-05 3:29 AM
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Posts: 12
Location: United States | Hello, all. I consider myself a medium-level solver, and this was definitely one of the most exciting tests I've seen here. It's the first test that I've solved all puzzles while the test was running. The fact that time solving time was not a major factor in the test (both in terms of the time alotted to take the test, and the factor that time had in assigning a score) helped to relieve a lot of pressure from solving, making for a more enjoyable experience for me. As solvers talk about different scoring systems, I hope that the appeal of a test like this to the not-top solvers is retained.
I'd like to see that we limit the number of solvers getting no bonus, because when that happens, ties accumulate around the multiples of the base-point per puzzle, and which puts more focus on the time solved. |
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Fillomino-Fillia 2 Author
Location: United States | That was one of the things that came to mind when I read motris's system. It seems there's four things a ranking system for a test like this has to deal with
1. Getting a proper ordering at the top.
2. Giving out enough bonus in the middle to avoid huge ties.
3. Being able to set a hard cutoff for no bonus (60 minutes here) so solvers that want to be competitive don't have to set aside an indeterminate amount of time to do each puzzle.
4. Being able to throw out a contestant's worst performance in a sensible way. (This basically requires that the top time be given the same amount of bonus for all puzzles.)
I'm inclined to agree with motris that the rank-based system is the best way to do 1 and 4. I've played around with several modifications to his system to try to do 2 and 3 better, but only two ideas don't have anything egregiously wrong with them:
A. Have a double-layered system where the top 25 or so use the system motris has (50-25 bonus points) and everyone else between 25th and the 60 minutes has points assigned by linear interpolation (25-0 bonus points). The interpolation could be done either by rank or by time. Some weaknesses are that it seems needlessly complex and that if there aren't many more than 25 people who solved in under 60 minutes the gradient for the 25-0 range could be inappropriately steep.
B. If a puzzle has N people finish in under 60 minutes, award 201-[rank] points for solvers finishing faster than 60 (so 200 for 1st) and 201-N points for everyone else. Have some floor (50?), a point total which anyone who solves the puzzle is guaranteed, in case close to 200 people finish in an hour. Numbers can be tweaked obviously. One "weakness" of this system is that it gives a different amount of points for finishing each puzzle assuming you cross the 60 minutes mark. But that might be a feature as opposed to a bug, since it will make the hardest puzzles worth much more to finish. |
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Posts: 199
Location: United States | MellowMelon - 2012-02-04 5:00 PM
That was one of the things that came to mind when I read motris's system. It seems there's four things a ranking system for a test like this has to deal with
1. Getting a proper ordering at the top.
2. Giving out enough bonus in the middle to avoid huge ties.
3. Being able to set a hard cutoff for no bonus (60 minutes here) so solvers that want to be competitive don't have to set aside an indeterminate amount of time to do each puzzle.
4. Being able to throw out a contestant's worst performance in a sensible way. (This basically requires that the top time be given the same amount of bonus for all puzzles.)
This is a terrific framework to view the scoring concerns. I chose 50 because it would "work" for 9 of the 10 puzzles, but I could have chosen 100 if I wanted 7 of the 10 puzzles to work, dropping kakuro and pentomino as being too hard too. But I agree a stable system that only rewards bonus to those under an hour is good and I think of your options, (A) is closest to what I might imagine being a good leveraged system. Let's say this:
"For all solvers that finish in under 60 minutes, they will earn a bonus based on their final rank. The first 25 solvers will earn a bonus of 25 points for 1st, down to 1 point for 25th. Also, with M solvers under one hour on a puzzle, the Nth solver will earn (M+1-N)/M * 25 additional points."
That certainly does (3). And while this might seem complex with two different parts, they independently serve to do (1) and (2) fairly. You cannot do just the former and capture (2). But you also cannot do just the latter and fairly do (1), as on a puzzle where many people qualify versus a puzzle where few people qualify, the top tier being 125, 124.8, 124.6 is much different than 125, 124, 123. The half-half system ends up being a good compromise. Taking the best score on 9 of 10 does the last part and your parameters are met.
I've remodeled the scoring with this new melon-like (A) as I specifically restated it. I was curious to see which if any puzzles really broke the scoring. Samurai sort of does as it only has 20 solvers in one-hour bonus zone, but the formula still is basically ok. Also, now only two solvers (158 and 159) tie at 900, and there is a lot more grading of intermediate scores. Give it a look if you are really interested.
rank2.xlsx (hosted on my webspace because of a 100kb rule here.)
Edited by motris 2012-02-05 7:55 AM
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Location: India | Fully agree with Melon's list, especially point 3
MellowMelon - 2012-02-05 6:00 AM
3. Being able to set a hard cutoff for no bonus (60 minutes here) so solvers that want to be competitive don't have to set aside an indeterminate amount of time to do each puzzle.
While we are trying to design a robust system that determines the relative scores / ranks at the top accurately and fairly, it is equally important to keep most other players in mind. In my view, the 60 minutes cut off for each puzzle in this test has been a key parameter for the success of this test. I would always vote for something that a player knows as his target, rather than bonus for top-50 or bonus based on n*top player's time which players don't know when they start solving.
motris' rank2.xlsx captures all the points logically and can be used in future marathons. It might sound complicated when someone reads first time, but for those who are not interested in details, it simply means "you get bonus if you solve within 60 minutes".
Yes, Samurai sort of breaks the scoring. But it is part of organizers' responsibility to have puzzles based on the scoring system in place. |
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Posts: 315
Location: The Netherlands | I guess this system solves many scoring ambiguities. I think the only scenario that is not captured is a TVC V like scenario, where one player is far superior than the rest. Isn't it possible to implement a system that is similar to the LMI Ranking score. There part of the rating is based on ranking and part on actual score, with the top score being 1000. So a system based part on ranking and part of actual time, where the fastest time is a set bonus and 60 minutes is 0 bonus and the rest is scaled.
I think the most annoying part of these grading systems is that you have no clue how you stand opposed to others when you're done solving and your relative rank will shift constantly. You can be ahead of someone when you're done solving and behind them when the test ends. This will especially affect people in the middle I think. I assume there's people in the middle who will try competing against eachother a bit too and they will have no clue if they beat their friend in this test or not till days after they are done. At least I always like to see how I have done against players who are close to me on the LMI rank when i'm done solving.
Edited by Para 2012-02-05 5:17 PM
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WPMM Author
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Location: Hungary | motris - 2012-02-05 3:22 AM
I've now gone ahead and played with the scoring model and tried the 150 for 1st, 149 for 2nd, 148 for 3rd, down to 100 for 51st through last finisher.
I dont think this system is too fair if somebody win a round with 6 minutes apart ;)
I propose that first position is 50 points bonus, and this is the base of the calculation of bonus points/minute.
For instance if the first's solving time 10 minutes then every minute is 1 point.
If the solving time 15 minutes then 50/45=1,11
So if the puzzle is too easy the bonus will be lower than 1, but in generally it will be higher than 1, in extreme cases it can be almost 2.
Every player still know that if he solves the puzzle within one hour, he gets bonus (and the bonus will be 1-1.5 in most cases). |
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Puzzle Marathon — 21st-29th January
