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Location: India | We, the organizers of WSC/WPC 2017, are proposing an idea of replacing the Playoffs in the 2017 Championships with more rounds for all players to solveThe WSC and WPC have always had playoffs at the end as a viewing attraction for audiences and as a grand finale to the competition. Over time playoff formats have changed and their fairness has always been debated among participants. With the Sudoku GP and Puzzle GP recently becoming annual tournaments with a playoff at the end, a playoff at the WSC and WPC feel redundant, in our opinion. All the positive which may be achieved by a WSC/WPC playoff are arguably achieved by the GP playoffs. In addition to this, scrapping the playoffs of WSC and WPC will give time for more rounds to solve for all competitors, and also act as a further distinction between the GPs and the World Championships. As per our suggestion, the champion will be decided by the total score across the individual rounds.
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Location: India | Poll closes on 28th Feb 2017This poll closes on 28th Feb 2017. Based on the results of this poll, the organizers will decide if playoffs should be replaced or not. Please note that only LMI members can vote, so register/login here in order to do so.
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2021 World Sudoku+Puzzle Convention Organizer
Posts: 164
Location: Slovakia | I am play-off enthusiastic and as you may have seen in Senec I would like to have even more play-offs... Team play-offs for example :)
We had 14 rounds at the WSC and 17 rounds at the WPC. Do you think that more rounds are still needed?
I believe that competitors solving both WSC and WPC may be tired and solving individual rounds on Saturday seems to be too demanding.
From my view WSC&WPC and WPF GP are totally different competitions and online solving requires different skills. Please keep in mind the difference. |
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Sudoku Day Author
Posts: 103
Location: Serbia | I think this poll is result of wishes to make some changes at the endgame. Play-off is good way to find out who is the best solver of the year. I don't want to sound destructively, but format seen in past three years is a bit unfair. Try to compare this playoffs structure with any other team or individual competition, sport or discipline.
The advantage at the final stage should be minimal, almost negligible (better draw at the start of the tournament, better lane, home-field advantage etc.). There is no distance, time or points advantages. Simply, this is a moment when you need to give your best.
I agree that perfect play-off system is not invented yet, but the face-to-face playoffs format from Kraljevica is much more equitable. Also, there were some dramatic scenes for the audience which was never seen again. That's the reasons why my vote goes for the playoffs. I hope this discussion will generate best solutions for the future. |
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Posts: 42
Location: ITALY | I think that playoffs are a suggestive moment of WSC/WPC, but certainly not like in Senec, where people weren't able to see what playoff solvers were writing, and all became rather boring. I would like an extended playoff, with the first 32 A-team players participant in face-to-face challenges like an ATP tennis tournament. This way, even reaching the 32nd position will become an interesting goal for WSC/WPC participants, whose number, besides, is ever increasing from year to year.
Edited by ingmanc 2017-01-04 4:54 PM
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Diagonal Vision Author
Posts: 337
Location: Switzerland | ingmanc - 2017-01-04 4:50 PM
This way, even reaching the 32nd position will become an interesting goal for WSC/WPC participants, whose number, besides, is ever increasing from year to year.
Number of official participants is rather stable (the tendancy seems even decreasing for WSC) at ~100. I don't think it would be a good idea that 1/3 of the participants can qualify for the playoffs. It has been done at WSC 2009 and even if I wasn't there, the reports I read seemed to tell that it was not a great success.
Edited by Fred76 2017-01-04 9:28 PM
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Posts: 42
Location: ITALY | Times change, dear Fred. And a format that eight years ago was not a success could be a success nowadays. Besides, considering unofficial participants, 32 playoff finalists are a part included between 1/7 and 1/8 of all participants. Far from 1/3, isn't it?
Edited by ingmanc 2017-01-05 4:36 PM
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Posts: 42
Location: ITALY | :-)
Edited by ingmanc 2017-01-05 4:21 PM
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2021 World Sudoku+Puzzle Convention Organizer
Posts: 164
Location: Slovakia | I believe that Fred talked about official participants. It seems reasonable that the play-off should be for the A-team players only.
Yes, the finals in Senec were somewhat boring. Doing the play-offs without cameras is meaningless.
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Posts: 172
Location: ITALY | Playoffs should definitively be for official participants only. Having eventually taken part to playoffs this year I can confirm it has been extremely exciting (from my point of view) and the number of players admitted should be increased to give more players the taste of it, without the need to wait to be 50 or over. I remember in Minsk the number of players admitted to the playoffs of the WPC was 17 and the event was managed very well. However I admit that in Senec the audience was not involved enough
There must be consistency in what we do. Playoffs were introduced to make more spectacular the event with the aim of making it more attractive for media; consequently, the playoffs should be videoed and broadcast for the audience (and potentially for TV recording/broadcasting). It will be an essential instrument for the newly appointed director of the WPF if he will have to find sponsors. I wasn't there but I was told that the format of the playoffs held in Philadelphia was the best so far.
Playoffs require different skills from the remainder of the championship. You can't choose any more,you have to solve all the puzzles you have in front, and this is why sometimes the playoffs give different results from the qualification tournement. Playoffs on flipcharts will add another variable to the more classical format used in Senec and will require even broader skills. Why not. As long as it will be spectacular.
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2021 World Sudoku+Puzzle Convention Organizer
Posts: 1801
Location: India | On behalf of the organizers, I wish to add some points to the discussion.
For one thing, we have an evening event of a Player vs Player knockout tournament planned in order to create a spectacle and provide people with a different kind of outlet. We have a set system for this kind of event which we tried out in the offline finals of Sudoku Mahabharat last year, and it proved to be very efficient and a lot of fun for all involved. So as far as the 'fun' element goes, we're very much aware and prepared for the need to provide something extra.
The more important fact we discussed is that, right now, even going by the replies here, the WSC WPC playoffs have been and are still in a constant state of experimentation. There is still not a sure-fire system which everyone agrees on, and more importantly, which works in terms of bringing in sponsors and getting interest in the event from outsiders, which is the main purpose in our opinion. So the simple question is, should we subject the world's top solvers to an experimental process across two competitions, both the GP as well as the WSPC, while we are still without much input in terms of results from these experiments and a set plan of action to use them?
The Player vs Player knockout tournament, for instance, is much more conducive to experimentation, as a fun event, and is also more conducive to getting sponsors/public interested. It doesn't seem like it would be a big difference to a sponsor or an outsider that a video is "WSC/WPC playoff" or "an event at the WSC/WPC" and a direct knockout format which gets everyone involved will provide the full scope of the event in a way that will probably be grasped more easily by an outsider. |
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| Play off will be better in my opinion |
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Posts: 10
Location: Canada | I think the playoffs should be included if the solving could be broadcast live to an audience or if it's done on large boards/grid such as in Beijing with the final 2. If playoffs aren't used, then perhaps later rounds should be worth extra points to allow for more movement in the standings. |
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2021 World Sudoku+Puzzle Convention Organizer
Posts: 164
Location: Slovakia | WaterlooMathie - 2017-01-14 8:09 AM
Perhaps later rounds should be worth extra points to allow for more movement in the standings.
Oh no, this is not a smart idea :(
EDIT: Now I am not sure, if I understand it correctly... Did you mean harder puzzles/rounds with more points at the end of the championship or rounds where the points will be inflated (as in the last race of the F1 championship)?
Neither does make sense to me...
Edited by greenhorn 2017-01-15 5:55 AM
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2021 World Sudoku+Puzzle Convention Organizer
Posts: 1801
Location: India | Hey Matus,
As you have said there may be two ways to interpret what David said, and we discussed both options.
Having a longer/harder round at the end while releasing partial results to raise the stakes and create anticipation is something we may consider as an alternative to playoffs.
Having a round with inflated points at the end is not something we are considering because in some ways this is what a playoff is without the restrictions on puzzle order selection a playoff has.
We would like to know why you think the former does not make sense. We also encourage David to elaborate his point further to make his thoughts on the matter clear. |
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Diagonal Vision Author
Posts: 337
Location: Switzerland | WaterlooMathie - 2017-01-14 8:09 AM
then perhaps later rounds should be worth extra points to allow for more movement in the standings.
prasanna16391 - 2017-01-30 6:23 PM
Having a longer/harder round at the end while releasing partial results to raise the stakes and create anticipation is something we may consider as an alternative to playoffs.
It's not evident that a longer/harder round provoques more movement in the standings, in my opinion.
Statistics on previous competition could be done to answer, but I think short round can lead to as much movement in the standings as long round. We have seen in the past lot of cases of very good players loosing lot of points on a short round, because if something goes bad (mistakes for example), the player doesn't have time to recover and the round ends to be catastrophic for him.
In my opinion, long rounds tend more to reproduce the hierarchy, producing less surprise than short rounds.
Fred |
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Snowmen Author
Posts: 44
Location: Russia | It's very hard to balance interest in competition for top players and medium solvers. Leaders gain 2-3 times more points than the middle of the scoring table at WPC - I don't know other sports with such a difference. Having this is hard to be completely concentrated at the second day when you are around 50-th place after the first day - there is no real difference between being 60-th and 30-th. I think that the extension of playoff to more participants could extend interests for the middle of the table. But this extension should not lead to more solving time for leaders. Participant who finished at 30 place should start finals earlier and have less probability to win than leaders. |
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Posts: 152
Location: United Kingdom | So one issue the playoff has to get around is that hours and hours of puzzle solving can potentially be overturned very quickly and give potentially unsatisfactory results. For example at the 12016 WPC, it was clear that Ken was by a mile the best solver - the gap between him in 1st and Ulrich in 2nd was as big as Ulrich in 2nd to outside the top 10. My personal view is that the playoffs failed in this case as it doesn't seem right that Ken did not win.
From that point of view, the playoffs has to balance giving a fair advantage to those who deserve it, versus having a competition that is interesting. I disagree strongly with the opinion that playoffs should only give a marginal advantage because it demotes the importance of the main competition. If you are a top solver, and there is no advantage offered by the playoffs at all, then there is an incentive to do just enough to qualify for the playoffs, perhaps to the extent of skipping rounds (Ken could have skipped several rounds and still made the top 10), to make sure that you are well rested and well prepared for the playoffs. Its the kind of thing that would ultimately demean the integrity of the main competition.
On reflection I think having more people in the playoffs is a bad idea. I think that 10 is probably too many, and the playoffs in recent years drag on for too long. If you want to make this media friendly then you probably want no more than 4 people to really focus on. I think in general in 2016 there were too many playoffs, and people who weren't directly involved got bored and did not watch. I suppose it's great for those who otherwise wouldn't be involved, but my feeling was the balance was not right.
One good idea from 2016 I think was the "Tour de Senec" which introduces side competitions alongside the general classification - although as with everything the initial idea can always be refined and improved. I think that the closest sporting parallel to the WSC/WPC is indeed a multi-stage bike race and I think there's good scope to transfer over some of the devices of competition.
One idea that comes to mind is to have the last round delayed until the scores to that point are available - that way the solvers know what they have to do. Then have a mad sprint round to see who comes out on top. |
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2021 World Sudoku+Puzzle Convention Organizer
Posts: 1801
Location: India | Poll closedThank you to everyone for voting and providing input on this topic. We will discuss the polling results and comments, factor that in to our decision and announce it on 31st March. In the meantime, please look at our other ongoing interactive initiative, the Puzzle Innovations Contest. We will have announcements of more interactive contests and discussions soon, so check back regularly.
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Posts: 16
Location: United States | I just want to say that I strongly agree with forcolin's statement that "the playoffs should be videoed and broadcast for the audience (and potentially for TV recording/broadcasting)" and I hope the organizers take that into account if there are playoffs. I fully support something like having a camera focused on each solver's puzzle, while puzzle authors/experts provide live commentary, which is what I hear was well-received at the 2010 Philadelphia WSC.
This is more tentative, but I wonder if live-streaming the playoffs would be a good idea. I dunno whether people not at the WSC/WPC would be interested in watching, but if you had live commentary while puzzles are being solved, and maybe interviews with the finalists or more commentary during downtime, I imagine it could be very entertaining (at the very least, I have a bunch of friends who'd enjoy watching something like this). You could also keep the videos for posterity, which helps with another publicity problem: there are almost no videos of previous years' championships, at least none that I can find. I would love to be able to search youtube for "world puzzle championship" and find videos of top puzzlers competing, but doing that right now only gives me some WSC 2012 videos and Stefano's recording of the WPC 2014 team playoffs. |
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2021 World Sudoku+Puzzle Convention Organizer
Posts: 1801
Location: India | Poll conclusionThe voting for this topic has been very closely contested, so we discussed it very carefully. There were three main factors leading to our decision.
- The votes for the option of Playoffs vs No Playoffs are divided equally.
- There has been a lot of valuable discussion on the pros and cons of all playoff formats that have been tried out over the years, so reaching a consensus on a universally agreeable system is still a work in progress.
- We were angling towards not having playoffs originally and have thought of good alternatives to achieve the same goals and are confident that we can execute them.
With all this in mind, we have decided to confirm that there will be no playoffs at WSPC 2017. As for what to do with the time saved, here the majority is clear, so we will not add too much extra solving time, and focus more on spacing the rounds nicely. Thanks again to everyone who voted.
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Posts: 2
Location: Serbia | Oh, what a terrible news! Actually, for me this is not so bad because I've never done much in the playoffs, but I am afraid that this decision could kill the essence of sudoku and puzzle world championships. I still hope that you will reconsider the decision and change it. |
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2021 World Sudoku+Puzzle Convention Organizer
Posts: 164
Location: Slovakia | Spacing the rounds nicely? I can't believe it...
This is the World championship, not a holiday.
Edited by greenhorn 2017-04-01 3:56 PM
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Classics & Regions (PR 2016/17) Author
Posts: 170
Location: Germany | Just as a counter point, I like to hear the focus on spacing the rounds nicely. The schedule is one of the things that made me enjoy Beijing and London quite a bit more than Sofia and Senec. It would be good if you did not feel to have to say cut a team round from an adequate hour to 40 minutes just to fit in the schedule, and instead give a few more teams the chance to finish! |
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Posts: 225
Location: Thailand | Playoffs give solvers, say, in positions 10-20 some incentive to try hard during the last few rounds to gamble and play aggressively to qualify for that top 10 finals.
Without this, would be a shame :( |
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Playoffs at WSC/WPC 2017
